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In Europe, they are offering two versions. itunes.apple.com/nl/preorder/dark-knight-rises-original/id54 1107322
One is 18 tracks - with one (shitty) remix by Junkie XL, and two - it seems Zimmer tracks - ''Shadows betray you'' and ''The End''.
Shame about Junkie XL, shame on you WaterTower!!!!!!
seriously, who the fuck needs those crap remixes -.-
Indeed - although the tracklist implies just one rmx.
Junkie XL does the best remixes.
I'll take a shitty remix if this means 'The Shadows Betray You' and 'The End' are more Zimmer material. And I kinda like Junkie XL, he made a pretty decent Inception remix. I'm not particularly bothered by remixes, but in most cases (POTC4) their execution leaves a lot to be desired. I actually considered Romani Holiday Remix from SH2 to be a fantastic track.
"Bombers over Ibiza"??? how's that even related to TDKR??
Sweet, now we get more than an hour of score
USA Preorder has the same tracks...Thats nice.
Sorry but Im saying it....After listening to the extended samples We;re getting nothing particularly new here outside of the Bane theme that's already been leaked. Its the same old tropes...Only now he's taking cues from his Lasirius Track from Batman Begins to flesh out new material for this one.
I am gonna go ahead and say it...The Dark Knight was the best score out of all three.
I've had about enough of your pseudo intellectual pessimism, Shatwell. None of what you just said even made sense and most of the tracks on this soundtrack are brand new material.
1. Gotham's Reckoning 2. Mind If I Cut In? 3. The Fire Rises 4. Underground Army 5. Fear Will Find You (old track modded to fit bane's motif/action theme) 6. Death By Exile 7. Imagine The Fire
And most of all, nobody fucking asked for your 13 year old opinion, faggot.
Stop pretending as if you know how the tracks sound at their full length. We only have about 1:20 seconds of samples -- when some of these tracks are 7 minutes+ in length. Just calm the hell down Big Birtha.
"Rise" is def. stolen from Batman Begins by Zimmer himself.
A Watchful Guardian
Yeah, just like the opening Star Wars theme was "Stolen" by John Williams himself, for use on all 6 movies.
D A R T H
No more poop-remixes we want more score !
If you're so tired then take a nap.
Even with these new/extended samples cropping up i'm hearing the same thing. Sure the Tracks are "newer" but that's like saying Hans Zimmer released a new album - I don't see so much of a progression of the Batman theme that we got with the Dark Knight as compared to the one in Batman Begins, much less so with this new one. Unless you wanna count Bane's theme as not really Bane's theme at all...
My opinions are mine. If you're getting offended then go fuck yourself.
People like Shatwell should be required to take an IQ test before they are allowed to run rampant posting their disturbing propaganda around the internet.
(Age verification too)
Shatwell is indeed entitled to his opinions.
But if people would just stop caring so much about what his opinions were, then they would just be lost in the wind like every other opinion that in the end has no real value other than what those who spend so much time acknowledging it allow it to have.
You should ask yourselves why do you care about my opinion if there isn't the possibility of truth in it?
And, one last thing...considering the preorder extended ost is 13.99 on Itunes, apart from the JunkieXL mix which doesnt interest me, I DO hope those last 2 tracks are more than the underscore samples they provided...All Ive heard from those two are sound effects and the synth-effect Zimmer created back in 06 for the Kraken on Pirates 2.
After all, I AM paying for it...
Actually, I wanted nothing more to say on this subject, actually...
What do you want anyway? This is a public forum, criticism must surely be allowed. What are all the insults? Every attentive listener can hear the compositional deficiencies of this work. See the cross-references to cues in other movies writen by remote control. Whether we like it or not, is a different question.
IQ test? age verification? As well, some take cover.
"Step one, instead of ass say buns, like kiss my buns or you're a bunshole
Step two, instead of shit say poo as in bull poo, poo head and this poo is cold
Step three, with bitch drop the T cause "bich" is latin for generosity
Step four, don't say fuck anymore, cause fuck is the worst word that you can say.
So Just use the word "mmmkay""
Don't start nothing. Wont be nothing.
Anyway, thanks for posting the extra extra extra samples, which rounds out the sample total to a good portion of each track.
And now, after hearing all of them...
It's like, now lacking James Newton Howard's integration, he literally took his synth keyboards from 1990 out of his garage and used them to do the music for this movie. This score literally sounds like his 1990s work...Very dissonant. Very synthy. Unless its the sampling, it seems to be lacking the layering technique and or orchestral accompaniment.
It just sounds so...retro. Simplistic. Very unlike the grandesque work he did on Pirates 3, which was a total culmination. DKR just sounds like a simple rehash done on one keyboard. Even pirates 4 had more variety.
I'd apologize about it - but that's idiotic since its costing me 13.99.
I know what it sounds like. You know what it sounds like. Its all the same music, just lacking more instruments to make it sound fuller.
with that being said, it is what makes this soundtrack particular. It's simplistic and minimalist aspect that makes original.
It truly does not sound like Begins and TDK for me. This soundtrack can be describe as epic and ambiant. Like a modern and industrial batman soundtrack. Really sounds underground. Almost Terminator-like and I find that really amazing.
What the fuck is with you man?
You just simply cannot go without trashing this album, you've repeated the same simple-minded srawman arguments again and again. Just shut it already.
Minimalistic. Yes I do agree on that.
Trashing the album? I am paying for it, for starters.
Second, it's pretty obvious based on the samples how the tracks are going to play out, so you can get a pretty good idea by this point.
Third, I simply expected more from this final Batman score. Are you going to tell me you did not, either? He is just repeating the same tracks we've already heard in the last 2 albums, with little variation...Why wouldn't this concern anyone?
And you call me simple minded...
I love how people are judging this just by the samples lol. Just because these tracks made it to the OST means absolutely NOTHING about how they will be played in the film. Pirates 4, anyone? Sherlock 2, guys?
What was put onto those two albums were horrid representations of the score, and in no way reflected what we heard in the film. For God's sake, Sherlock's speed and tempo were off. Just wait until the damn movie is released, THEN criticize the score. You people make me laugh lol
I'm not sure whether further discussions are useful, some members of this forum are simply resistant to arguments.
Never mind, there is much more important things in life.
Im resistant to arguments too of this kind. I already know whats what...So it doesnt bother me. What does bother me is criticisms are not welcome, and yet everybody here can do nothing but say its a masterpiece. This I will not do....No rational mind can honestly say this.
Nope imagine the fire is awesome and Rise makes me love Hans zimmer music even more
Cmon guys...13.99 is a decent price.
Why do we fall, Gotham's Reckoning, Imagine the fire, and Fear will find you -- are probably going to be the main songs I'm interested in.
isn't Gotham's Reckoning already released in the form of that Mtv trailer music? It sure sounds like it does....
Aside from that I have to agree...That's pretty much all I'm interested in, as well. So far the rest sounds like simplistic nonsense. Imagine the Fire, Fear Will Find You, and I'll even go with Rise - just because it will justifiably end the suite I'm making for this score (even tho so far it sounds like the same damn thing)
Gotham's Reckoning on the OST sounds nothing like the MTV trailer music, even though they share the same motif and melody. It's pretty different.
Hi, im competing on the soundcloud competition of hans zimmer, I know 7 out of the 8 songs in there, can anyone tell me which is the song at the 56th second, its a piano tune, but I can't identify it, thanks
I had one question. Generally as it is with the names of tracks, invents itself is a composer? or that someone is in charge of production? :)
normally it's sentences coming out of the movie.
I know but just with Hans, are from from the Sentences, which did not spoil too much, so I wonder who's in businness?
Well I know that Hans joked around in an interview once with KUSC and cited a few examples of albums where he and his team were sitting around in a room with a "bit too much wine" coming up with titles like bat species for Batman Begins and insanity for Sherlock.
Does anybody know if there will be a deluxe packaging edition like there was for TDK? It was in a fold-out cardboard case, had different artwork and came with 3 collectible cards.
h t t p://2.bp.blogspot.com/_e52rIthxGZA/SE3ucz63hYI/AAAAAAAAArI/P qXda8V4dEA/s400/darkknightsoundtrackspecial.png
I was wondering the same thing, but I kinda doubt it. Wouldn't they have announced it by now? On WaterTower's FB page they promised we'd get plenty of "goodies", but so far we only know about the extra tracks.
Awesome! But going at this rate, we'll have the whole album available in the form of samples XD
I wish zimmer would cut the crap of album tracks leading into one another. can't we get something like how brian tyler organizes his scores? NO bleeding into the next track, ends perfectly and smoothly.
h t t p://watertowermusic.com/releases_spotlight.php?search=WTM393 13
Much better than the other samples!!! I'm dying for the release.
I was disappointed by the first samples, but these are just amazing! A new hope :)
This all sounds very interesting, but so far it's still lacking a little. There are some very nice parts to be heard though, and one interesting tidbit which is...
...that what you hear in the sample for Born In Darkness is definitely Ras Al Ghul's theme. Interesting, huh?
I noticed that. Very intelligent, I think.
There is no sign of Ras al Ghul in the new sample of "Born in Darkness". It's playing the heroic Batman theme, with a moving harmony line in the upper strings. Not at all the same as the harmonic structure of Ras al Ghul's theme.
A Watchful Guardian
On Thin Ice appears to be a reflection of the opening cue of dies mercurii i martius from The Da Vinci Code soundtrack. You'll know what I'm talking about.
Gotham Reckoning will be great!!
Born In Darkness samples Prison Nightmare from BB
Watertower Music's facebook page says they're going to be releasing new samples of the tracks each week.
That's goofy. How are they going to do that with the tracks that are less than a minute long? And for the longer-than-a-minute tracks, wouldn't someone with a little bit of editing talent be able to stitch all the samples together? A good portion of the soundtrack could already be available by the time it is officially released--or is my math off?
Hey does anybody knows if "The Chant" will appear in the score ? Because we haven't heard it yet !
Don't worry it'll be in Gotham's Reckoning. :)
@ mr fate: yes that would be goofy, if the release date would be in some months, but don't forget, this will come at july 17th out, so it won't be that long. in 2-3 weeks, we can hear the ost, so it's not thaaaaat goofy anymore with releasing something every week. :)
"Born In Darkness" sounds exactly like "Prison Nightmare" from BB.
Well..you already have 2 minutes of Imagine the Fire with whats been released so far....
2 minutes? have i missed something? where do have another 1 minute of that track? ;)
Two minutes...? I'm completely lost. (and by the way this is completely irrelevant but why is Hybrid Soldier's name in blue...)
for me it's light green. and with that we can identify wether it's the real hybrid or the fake hybrid when he posts something like "for me this is some old news" ;P
Oh wait. My bad. I have 2 minutes of that track...I know how to finagle 30 second tracks to make them bigger...
Track; Gotham's Reckoning sounds like TDKR Nokia Trailer Debut Mnsic..!!
Peter... no it doesn't
Gotham's Reckoning is the prologue track
A Watchful Guardian
Well to be fair to him, they both are variations of Bane's theme, with the motif and melody from Gotham's Reckoning. So yeah, in a way, he's right -- do they sound the same? Not particularly.
So its safe to say this Trailer 4 track pretty much IS Bane's theme....Which sounds like Inception's Time track, only action based...
Now if only someone could remix Time as an action track...That would go well with this theme....
It really doesn't sound like "Time" at all, and musically, it's written in a different time signature/scale/key. The motif is wildly different and none of the notes are even close to being the same in the progression
First Two (only two?)chords of the music sounds like Time. Im not the only person who has made this connection....
Put em together and see for yourself. It sounds like Time. As s matter of fact I'll bet you can put this track right after Time and it would seem like a natural progression.
You should get your head checked.
To be fair, I have heard the Time comparison before. I've never really seen any connection whatsoever, though.
A Watchful Guardian
Time (at it's beginning) was basically the left overs of the Gladiator theme. There's even an old video of Hans while he's trying to write new shit for Pirates: Dead mans chest, and he starts playing the first 3 notes of the Gladiator "earth" theme and then eventually what he plays eventually turns into a early version of "time". (while still retaining those first notes of the gladiator theme at the beginning)
So when I hear people compare it to this new Dark Knight material I have to face-palm a little, because that shit is closer to JNH's wayne theme from the first film than any thing else
"time" is a re-interpretation of "journey to the line" from the thin red line. and that comes even from hans zimmer directly, that he wanted to re-create "journey to the line" and making it more "modern" with his new knowledge.
you can read this at his facebook page. so, no gladiator, no pirates, no tdkr. it's the thin red line!
A Watchful Guardian
All I know is that he had that material sitting around for a good amount of time(2006) before it was finally used on inception
The samples on watertowermusic.com have been extended to 1 minute each.
Lots of them sound like old-school Zimmer, especially "Mind If I Cut In?". There seems to be even more electronics in this one than the first two. Some of it reminiscent of Inception. Here we have the Zimmer of the late 80's/early 90's and the late 2000's in the same score. I like it. And "Imagine The Fire" sounds very promising :)
Samples are available at this site called ExLibris. It seems that Zimmer has retained the sound he employed on the first two films, but he also seems to be moving in a more lyrical direction at certain points. "On Thin Ice," "Nothing Out There," "Imagine the Fire," and "Rise" are good examples of this. I'll have to hear a bit more before I'm fully convinced to buy it, but there is promise here. My favorite piece so far is the slinky and memorable Catwoman motif heard in "Mind If I Cut In?"
(Info comes via Film Music Reporter)
I disagree. Now that he is at a loss with Howard's undertones and scoring, he is left to scoring his usual BS...I think the samples pretty much say it all...Tonally speaking Howard has more prowess in that arena than Zimmer, and the previous Batman scores shined as a result...
This one? My only guess is he's gonna employ another rock guitarist to back him up or some other crazy shit, because this sounds like "Pirates 4 score" if you catch my meaning.
FYI Zimmer's claim to fame on this score was his abition to have millions of people sing the chant all at once....
BIG DEAL....I sez. A chant doesn't make a score great. The sum of its parts do.
I agree, Howard gave beauty to BB and TDK.
Finale to Nolans trilogy deserves better, Mr Zimmer. A lot better.
PS But I hope I'm wrong.
@shatwell: If you think that a score is great because of the sum of its parts, then the previous Batman scores are great because of Zimmer. JNH's contributions make up about a fourth of the scores.
To which Zimmer expanded upon through the rest of HIS scoring and in effect provided more depth to said score than his two-note main theme for Batman, all alone.
Obviously am not the only one who doubting the compositional skills of Mr Zimmer ...
"Batman scores are great because of Zimmer." Please? I do not understand something? "JNH's contributions make up about a fourth of the scores." True, the decisive fourth. The rest is generic.
Bye the way, HZ was NEVER on the same level like John Williams. HZ wrote one perfect score, "Broken Arrow". JW wrote, what can i say, "Jaws, Star Wars, Indiana Jones, E.T., Jurassic Park, Shindlers List, ... All musical icons of their time. We want to please stick to the truth. Any questions? I ask for counter-arguments.
ananymous, how much scores from Zimmer did you listen? 2? 3?
Probably all. From "Rain Man, Black Rain, Driving Miss Daisy, Green Card, Days of Thunder" to "Black Hawk Down, Pirates ..." And before anyone asks, yes i listen BB and TDK too, even the recording sessions. I know what I’m talking about. Not all of his scores are bad, but many are not very good, especially in recent years. That's not a secret.
And what do you think about Pirates 3?
What can I say? How many tracks has he written himself? The first track is the best, original and exciting. The beginning of the second one is good, the subtheme in "Up is down" is really funny or the tragic one in "I see Dead ...". "Parlay"? This is "Once Upon A Time In The West", written by Ennio Morricone. A really bad piece of music is "I don't think...". We've already heard a thousand times, in every HZ action score of the last 20 years. And in certain cues the ideas of the two composers John Barry & Ennio Morricone. Why? Some good ideas and the maintheme written by Klaus Badelt. Everything else is replaceable, noisy and not particularly intelligent. The whole thing is rather confusing. It's a shame.
"I don't think now's the best time" is imo one of the best piece of music Zimmer has ever written, mixing in an epic way a lot of themes from the trilogy.
Aren't you impressed by the music playing during the death of Lord Cutler Beckett?
Which main theme is written by Klaus Badelt ? o_O
PIRATES 3 - the culmination of Zimmer's Pirates music and the heaviest it was ever going to get.
Pirates 3 was Super-Mega-Overproduced, and worked.
BUT...When you're stuck with a Two-Note theme for Batman, and your score is designed with the backbone of Black Rain, what else can you possibly do?
Toss in a little more piano...Hark back to Batman Begins motifs you didn't use in the Dark Knight. Bring back the solo boy singer ...because this movie's score really was lacking of that boy's voice from the first film.
Im sorry, but all these 2-3 minute pieces don't impress me...The ending music sounds like Zimmer's best effort was to toss in the super chant and as just the orchestration/tempo a bit for his typical Batman Action music.
I like Zimmer, but I can't help but say to myself the Dark Knight is his most inspired work of this series. And JNH played a pretty large part of that.
I expect a very epic score as Hans said himself, "extraordinary epic". When you know his talent for epic scores i am not worried about beauty as well...
A Watchful Guardian
shatwell, that post was cringe-worthy and hard to read.
Anyway, it's a sequel, obviously 50% of the music is expected to make some type of reprisal. The only people in the world that want "hours of new music" are the people posting on this website.
If this had been a standalone movie like Inception, and we clearly heard music copied from TDK in the samples -- then MAYBE all of this speculative pseudo hating/crybaby bullshit might be justified.
I'm pretty sure all of the Star Wars films had roughly the same material throughout with a few new suites here and there. (i.e. duel of the fates)
@A Watchful Guardian
No, you're wrong. Star wars is not full of the same recycled material. All the films are chock-a-block full of new material, and it's not just themes, it's new underscore and new textures. Old leitmotifs get quoted but it's always fresh and not note-for-note copy and paste. Repeating himself is not something Williams does very often, except of course for set pieces such as credits and titles. He knows how to approach writing for a franchise. Just look at Harry Potter. Ok, the second one was partly tracked from the first films score, but that was because Williams had a lot of other scores to do, and basically wrote (quite a lot) of new material and then gave it to his assistant to combine with old music and fit it to the picture. But when he came back to do the third film it was a fresh approach with a whole host of new themes, and a very original voice for the film.
An acute observation: why is ananymous (as well as several of the rest of you) so firm on establishing his opinions, thoughts, and beliefs as true, rock-hard, 100% truths?
I won't go into detail--as the rest of you have done that sufficiently--but there are just certain sentences that pop out to me in several posts that are written to sound like facts but are, in actuality, only opinions. And this is how heated arguments get fueled and--hooray!--logical fallacies abound!
I am not in possession of the only truth. Would anyone like a music-theoretical analysis of Hans Zimmer's work?
I'm interested why someone prefers his music and why not. I do not want hearing "Oh this is fantastic, best ever, ...". I want to know why.
Much of the comparisons are just plain wrong, opinions, not arguments. "Star wars is full of the same recycled material". Absurd. The thematic diversity is unique. "Main, Imperial, Force, R2D2, C3P0, Princess Leia, Java, Jabba's Theme" & subthemes in the first movie. The new themes in the second one "Darth Vader, Joda, Bespin, Love Theme, Emperor, Lando's Theme + subthemes". The third ... Everyone can think well, what's coming. Incidentally, I'm not a Member of the JW Fan Club.
@ Hybrid Soldier "Singapore" & "Drink Up ...". The Main Theme from "POTC".
... Which was written by Hans Zimmer. That, my friend, is a fact... ;)
Sorry. "Singapore" & "I Don't Think Now Is the Best Time", not "Drink Up ...". My fault. In order to clarify the facts: hans-zimmer.com/index.php?rub=disco&id=686
Yeah I know the page quite well since I'm the one who made it the way it is...
I just wonder if you know which themes you are talking about... ;)
@ananymous: In your first post in this topic, you say "I ask for counter-arguments." In your second most recent post here, you say "Much of the comparisons are just plain wrong, opinions, not arguments." What gives? People are arguing with you and then you say they are not arguments...? What IS an argument to you?
Continuing on...quotes from you:
"HZ wrote one perfect score, Broken Arrow"--Simply absurd. Have you not listened to classics such as The Lion King, Black Rain, Rain Man or some of the newer works such as Pirates 3, Sherlock Holmes, and Inception?
"A really bad piece of music is 'I don't think...'. We've already heard a thousand times, in every HZ action score of the last 20 years"--absolutely absurd. Point us to the other 1000 times we've heard a ten-minute long piece that's as loaded full of action and emotion as 'I don't think..." that sounds just like it.
With Hybrid: ananymous clearly doesn't understand the principles of what a theme really is. This is the second time he's had difficulty in that area.
I like how people like to compare Zimmer's work in Pirates over the work he did in Batman...
Clearly the two are different animals and one's score GREW exponentially from its predecessors, and so far, based on the samples, it's not Batman...not yet at any rate?
Again mind you he now is lacking JNH, so he has to do something else with this score to make it "epic". All he tooted about of late was the huge chant of a million voices blah blah blah. Nothing personal, but I'll take the entire score for Pirates 3 over some revolutionary chant that is supposed to make this Batman score more epic than the last...
Based on the information presented thus far? Simply not impressed. I might be wrong once the cd/movie comes out, but I doubt it.
@ Mr. Fate Nonsense. You have not yet made ​​a single argument. Criticism thrives on the comparison. Where is yours? No comparison, nothing. It simply not enough to say: "You have no idea". A quote is not a argument. And my friend: I do not think you understood HS correctly.
@ Hybrid Soldier "Singopore" at 2:52.
Haha sorry ananymous but this time you're f*cked! The theme you speak about was written by Zimmer in the famous "demo" he did for the firt Pirates (if i'm not wrong, Hybrid can you confirm this?)
God damn! It's like we're talking to a solid brick wall here, and the only thing this brick wall is capable of saying is, "No, shut up, you're wrong. Anything and everything you say is wrong, invalid, and irrelevant and I am always 100% right."
ananymous, if you want to devolve this argument into arguing over what an argument is and how we are all doing it wrong except you, by all means please go ahead. You and others like you are one of the reasons this site is declining. I'm sorry, but there's no point in arguing with a block of wood such as yourself. Other people come here to have constructive intellectual conversations here, but not you! No sir!
And I'd like to believe that isn't because of a language barrier, but the specifics don't matter to you, do they?
@everyone else: I strongly recommend that you stop arguing with this troll, as well; our conversation is deteriorating more and more the longer we feed him.
Ananymous clearly has unresolved mental health issues, I think we should stop trolling him before we rustle his jimmies and he goes off the deep end.
Let's Enjoy TDKR SCORE
Yes Guys,,, we will speak about anonymous this month until the TDKR ost realease next month 07172012, alright spent alittle funytime here and fill the TDKR SCORE Page with the Controversy of anonymous about hans zimmer score ......!
@ananymous, shatwell, Pierre, and the other Zimmer haters: You guys clearly reek of the overly-analytical, nitpicky, missing-the-point Filmtracks opinion. I'm tired of all this nonsense.
First of all, IMO, Zimmer's scores since 2000 are as equally good (if not better) than his scores before 2000. He clearly has more projects to work on now, and not all are great, I can admit that. But, many are, and those that are great are quite better than his scores in the 90's. The ones I have in mind are Gladiator, Hannibal, Black Hawk Down, The Last Samurai, King Arthur, Spanglish, The Holiday, The Da Vinci Code, Pirates 3, Frost/Nixon, Angels & Demons, Sherlock Holmes, Megamind. In between all these great scores he's also written fantastic themes for The Ring, Matchstick Men, the other Pirates films. Something's Gotta Give, Tears of the Sun, The Simpsons Movie, Kung Fu Panda, Rango. Those scores weren't as great overall, but they were certainly above average. The reasons I mention these scores is because Zimmer's sound is much more evolved and grounded than in the 90's. He's improved quite a bit on his sound palette, his electronics, the orchestration etc. You guys also don't seem to consider that Zimmer works on more projects in a year than any other composer. In the last twelve years he has composed 56 scores and been involved in dozens of other projects as producer, consultant, arranger, musician, etc. Let me emphasize that: 56 SCORES! This is why I argue that he is just as good as John Williams most of the time. Perhaps Zimmer could have taken different choices and chosen to work only on one or two scores a year, and it would have given us different scores. Perhaps better scores. But, and I do say this cynically, if he's approached by dozens of projects every year, that's obviously a lot of money. And I say, cynically again, that any composer in his shoes you choose the same. All composers have to make a living. Zimmer has been smart throughout his whole career and he's lucky now to have so many directors and producers coming to HIM. I don't doubt that if he denied more projects he'd have more energy to put into making one or two GREAT scores every year. But again, he has to make a living just like every other person, and he has to let his business flourish. I admit that many times he gets things wrong. I can think of several scores that I've been disappointed with. But it's wrong to generalize and say that he's losing it and that those scores reflect on his entire career in general. AND EVEN THEN, he still finds time to write FANTASTIC themes. Yes, sometimes he leaves the arranging to other people, but that's my next point...
The subject of the additional music guys has led many fans to think that Zimmer hardly works on his projects anymore. This is absolutely wrong! Hybrid Soldier has told us on many occasions that Zimmer usually writes over an hour or so of music and lets the arrangers copy and paste it to the movie. I don't want to belittle the role of the additional music guys, but they do little more than just "copy and paste". This is apparent because when you listen to the theme suites that have been released on album, and listen to the rest of the score, most of it is taken from those theme suites, in the case that a lot of additional music people are on the project. And, not all of Zimmer's suites are released, so there's more music that's given to the "goons" to copy and paste. So, ultimately, when I listen to an album that lists 5 or so additional music writers, I know that 90% of what I'm listening to is Zimmer and 10% or so is variations by the "minions" on ZIMMER'S THEMES. It's still HIS NOTES. That's an absolute truth. Another thing to take into consideration is that Zimmer gives a lot of credit to others, even when their contributions are minimal. There's the usual common misconception that Lisa Gerrard wrote part of Gladiator because she's given equal credit. Yet, Zimmer himself said that she wrote NOTHING, he just felt her contributions were deserving of that kind of credit. Occasionally, he credits musicians and vocalists, even though they wrote NOTHING. This is my problem with you guys being so nitpicky and overly-analytical. You reach wrong conclusions ("Zimmer's lazy, he writes nothing now-a-days, he lets a gazillion ghostwriters do the rest") and you miss the POINT of the music.
I'd like to stress again that Zimmer is just as capable as the great modern film composers. He's certainly the most diverse, he's approached all kinds of movies and projects and established fortes in them. The typical problem is that many people just don't look at his lesser known projects and they interpret what he tried to do wrongly. When the notes are there and the style is there, I'm satisfied, just as I would be with any other composer. The thing is that sometimes Zimmer sees something in the movies that you don't immediately see, and exploits it in marvelous ways. When he gets it right, the themes are great and the sound is great. He's not John Williams only in terms of style, but he CAN and HAS written music as complex as Williams, and other great composers.
Let's get back to Batman Begins and The Dark Knight. I think this is an example where he got the sound right, but the notes and themes are lacking a bit. But, frankly, among Zimmer's career, those make or break it. They don't reflect his entire career, they're not the best or the worst (IMHO), and, really, James Newton Howard didn't play as big a role as you guys think. I don't dismiss his work, because he DID write beautiful themes for those scores. But you can easily see that Zimmer's creative influence over-shadowed JNH's work. I think the scores would have been better off if JNH hadn't been there. The styles just don't mesh. Let's wait til the TDKR album comes out to talk about it in depth, shall we?
Well said, MG. And people also forget that all the John Williams and Jerry Goldsmith's out there all have or had additional music composers - they just never get credit.
I should also say that additional music composers do more than just fit Zimmer's music to picture. They DO write original cues as well., sometimes If you like to some of Jablonsky's cues from Hannibal, they are definitely Jablonsky through and through :)
Thanks! Yes, I agree. I especially enjoy Lorne Balfe's input. I was just trying to make the point that Zimmer doesn't do it because of laziness.
A Watchful Guardian
Lorne Balfe is a cool guy and an amazing music writer, I would be more upset to see him left out of a HZ score
Zimmer managed to write 56 scores because he applied a system that was as simple as John Carpenter's style, yet easily produced by employing proteges, and therefore efficient and affordable...
Then you have his industry, where he now incorporates actual symphonic instruments with his simplicities to make it more robust sounding, when in reality it is what it is...
nut what it certainly is NOT is comparable to the work of Williams by any measure, because Williams did the polar opposite of Zimmer, using synth music to accentuate the orchestra he conducted on a regular basis...
You could argue old vs new in this case, but I wouldn't waste my time.
I still think its pretty much a rehash of the last 2 scores, minus JNH of course.
Sorry Zimmer...Love your work, but over time it all starts to sound the same. Such is the way with trilogies, I suppose.
A Watchful Guardian
Well I guess you'll have to wait until the score of Man of Steel for your dose of freshly hated "not-J. williams" music then.
I find it ironic that you write a long constructive post about how John Williams is more impressive because he conducts his own pieces/doesn't need synths, and then backpedal by saying pandering things like "sorry hans, love ur work but...".
Make up your fucking mind.
Please do not pool me in the category of "Zimmer haters". I am not a Zimmer hater at all, I'm a big fan, and I love his music. You think because I defended a weak attack of John Williams music (somebody said Star Wars was full of recycled material) that I'm automatically on the "side of the bad guys." I love Zimmer and I love Williams. But on another note, I don't think zimmer's additional music composers are the same deal as Williams orchestrators. Williams orchestrators will never write out a whole cue, they will simply transcribe the notes into a full 32 line score, which is quite time-consuming. Much like Bruce Fowler. Zimmer's assistants will write original material, action tracks which use elements of Zimmer's initial musical ideas, but still a LOT of original notes on the part of the assistants. This is in stark contrast to Williams who virtually writes EVERY note in one of his scores. This has been confirmed by Conrad Pope and many other of his orchestrators, it's merely a logistical copying job.
Well I probably stirred up a hornet's nest ... This is so funny. And it really works.
Who is the bigger fool? The fool? Or the fool who follows him?
@ Hybrid Soldier "Singopore" at 2:52. Right or wrong?
Guardian lives in a world of black and white, apparently...if it's not one or the other then it's illogical.
I listen to both Williams and Zimmer. I can love one, both, or neither at the same time, whenever I want. Problem?
@Pierre: I apologize, that was a stupid thing to do.
@shatwell: I'm not arguing old vs. new. To be honest, I don't think of Williams' music as old-fashioned or anything like that. My point is, Hans could've have made decisions back in the 90's that might have led him to be in a different position than he is in now. If he'd have chosen to decline many projects, to score only one or two movies a year in order to focus more on the individual scores, his career would be quite different. But, again, he made cynical choices, choices all of us would have taken if we were in his shoes. And, you know what? Maybe they weren't so cynical. As early as the late 80's he was cultivating friendships with a LOT of directors, directors that he still works with today. He has DOZENS of friendships in the industry, with people that crank out movies all the time. This year alone, all of the scores that he's done or will be doing will be with directors or producers he's worked with before. He could say no to those projects, and perhaps that might not even hurt his connections. But, if he had said no to, say, Ron Howard on his upcoming movie, Rush, Howard would have to go with another composer and that might ruin Zimmer's chance of getting hired by Howard later on. Again, he's doing what ay other composer would do in his shoes, making a living.
I won't argue the old vs. new thing extensively because I know you will typically dismiss it. In case you're wondering I don't think Williams' music is old fashioned. But, even he has a comfort zone. There are plenty of examples where Zimmer's music is just as complex. I always think of The Battle from Gladiator. And please, don't give me the tired argument that he copied off Holst. Plenty of people now have comprehensively proven that it's not copied or plagiarized. They interpret it as it was meant to be, an inspired piece of music. In case that's not good enough, I recommend you listen to The Burning Heart and To Every Captive Soul from Hannibal, The Banker's Waltz from Matchstick Men, A Small Measure of Peace from The Last Samurai(and the whole album for that matter), Bus Stop from Spanglish, Daniel's 9th Cipher from The Da Vinci Code, Why Does Everything I Whip Leave Me? from The Simpsons Movie, First Ideas from Frost/Nixon. This is just a handful of examples I can think of where the complexity and sound are perfect.
I think my arguments have been perfectly reasonable and I've provided many examples, but you still stick to your initial arguments, while I've given you comprehensive arguments. We're going nowhere! I've said before that I don't consider Zimmer's Batman scores his best or his worst, can we move on past that, at least? On the Williams vs. Zimmer issue, you're dead set on thinking that Zimmer has never nor will ever be as good as Williams. I can't prove you wrong, because this is all subjective. But, I've given you clear examples of music that Zimmer has written that is on the Williams level.
@ananymous: I'm sorry, I simply don't understand where you're going with that comment. Care to explain?
A Watchful Guardian
Whatever you just posted has nothing to do with what I said.
I listen to them both too. You just come off the same as the owner of filmtracks, comparing JW to Hans (essentially bashing him the whole time) then at the end of your reply you add something like:
"oh yeah I totally adore Hans Zimmer, but this score isn't going to be good because I can tell the future"
It appears you are just here for the subtle trolling, not for the sake of the argument. You're saying just enough to ensure you get people to complain about what you write.
actually Drone I'm not really arguing if you like this or that...You can like whatever you want.
I certainly do.
And on top of that I'm also prone to liking a composers work for one score (example: James Horner with Legends of the Fall or say, Aliens), and then condemning him the next (James Horner for Spiderman wtf was that all about).
Its all subjective, really. Depends on what I'm in the mood for...That's just how I roll, because I choose the music they make that I WANT in my life...It doesn't HAVE to be all of it.
That's fine, and it's the point I've been trying to make all along, that we shouldn't generalize a composer's career (he's generally good, generally bad, etc.). I think we've finally reached an agreement.
I agree...I love Zimmer when I love him...But when I hate him, his music just simply sucks.
Batman Begins had tracks in it that were OK...But I found myself flocking more towards JHN's contributions which really gave the score its heart...and then I realized the badassed Zimmer End Title track was nowhere to be found on the cd...That sucked.
Dark Knight was the best of this series thus far, sans Joker's music, because it just seemed too one-note (pun intended). At least with this score Zimmer expanded on his two note motif...
So far from what Ive heard he's just giving the themes a newer tempo and expanding a tiny tiny bit on the Dark Knight theme.
Not sure if THE final evolution for Batman's theme is the piece used in the MTV Awards trailer (the track that sounds similar to Inception's Time track), but I guess we'll see...
You realize I just mentioned a theme sounds similar to another theme, I might add..
Well that's your opinion, which you have stated and re stated enough times now. Give it a break, go to your local JNH circlejerk if you want to express your praise for that guy.
Hans Zimmer Will Score The New Superman Movie "Man Of Steel" This marks the first collaboration between Director Zack Snyder And Composer Hans Zimmer. Director Zack Snyder worked in his previous films with Composer Tyler Bates. Superman "Man Of Steel" is produced by Christopher Nolan, Emma Thomas and the script was written by David S. Goyer. h t t p://www.variety.com/article/VR1118055676
Hate to interrupt this battle of the egos but Nokia has sponsored a new full-length TDKR trailer, with what sounds like an alternate mix of the MTV trailer... I'm hoping this means we'll hear something like it on the album.
h t t p://www.youtube.com/watchv=ASQqjK47c04&feature=youtu.be&hd=1
I just adore how people come out of the woodwork to bash Zimmer O_o
Everyone is, of course, entitled to their opinion but the disturbing thing is that these people bashing him are already frequenters to the board. They are simply posting under different names to get a rise out of people. Sad, really.
Can we just wait the month that we have left for the score and the movie to come out before we judge every aspect of Hans Zimmer's career based on 30 second samples?
I'll admit at first I wasn't BLOWN AWAY by the samples, but they're starting to grow on me quite nicely. So I'm just going to sit like a patient Zimmer fan and wait for the entire album, which I already know I'm going to like, doing other things with the life I have besides arguing over this man's career and his situation in the film composing legacy.
Whether you appreciate his music or not, Hans Zimmer and his goons (affectionate nickname, as I find a way to appreciate all of their flairs) have created music in the 21st century film composing world that's most widely recognized by mainstream audiences abroad. This is not an opinion.
What also isn't an opinion is that John Williams did the exact same thing in the 20th century. He's in a different league of his own; that much is obvious. Hans Zimmer has immense respect for Williams, as he should. The man is a legendary musician. Whether or not you find that he is best suited for the film composing world or his talent would be better off allowed to roam free without the constraints of tailoring music to film IS up to personal opinion, and I personally believe the latter.
But what you also have to remember is that they're both playing for the same team. At the end of the day, all film composers want to do is serve the film they are presented with. Compliment it, drive it, move it forward. Create something that either stays with the audience or doesn't distract them. No film composer should try to be the next Mozart, and if they do, they're not serving the film, they're serving themselves.
All fandoms aside, if I had a big film I wanted to make, I would ideally want to work with HZ and his team to design the score. Yes, above Williams or most others. Remote Control, regardless of personal taste or style, gets the job done, and they get it done well. They are mainstream 21st century film composing.
Is it just me or does anyone else feel that this is the biggest/most hyped soundtrack release in Hans Zimmer's career? People seem to be coming out of the woodwork in support of his new music for this film.
It is getting a lot of attention because all previous Zimmer/Nolan collaborations have been hits. People now think that anything with these duo's stamp on it just can't go wrong.
What a useless collection of nothing. What a bad music. Without the ideas of James Newton Howard, HZ is completely helpless. No structure, nothing. The whole thing sounds much more like a demo tape, totally unworthy.
fantastic language ...
I am not a troll. This score is bad, it is not my fault. Everyone can hear it. No ideas, no structure, no variations, no themes, only a mix of the well known. Batman Begins is the most imaginative of the three Nolan movies, TDKR with distance is the worst. As a fanboy you should not ignore the reality.
Then why do you care losing your time on this site ? ;)
If you think your opinion matters and you feel an unstoppable need to express it, you just better keep to the Filmtracks crowd ! ;)
Hope dies at last ...
Why you don't accept another meaning about this? If he doen't like what he had listen to then he doesn't like it, and that's all. This is a public site and everybody has access to it. It's the same game like on Filmtracks. But there are all the Zimmer-Fanatics and they're attacking the reviewer - with all respect but that's also not the meaning of a public discussion place. Of course: On a hans-zimmer.com you're hoping to get mostly positive reactions for a new hz-score - but there's also an opposite of it! :)
How can you say "this score is bad" or "no ideas, no structure, no variations" if you only heard 30 seconds snippets???
@ananymous: Fantastic language yourself... Dude, there are at least 4 main themes heard in the samples so far, all written by Zimmer, not counting SEVERAL other motifs that pop up in between the main themes. I don't think you really understand what a theme is, or even understand the notes used in themes.
If you want to talk about imaginative and creative, then I'd say that JNH writes traditional orchestral music without experimenting with different instruments and different sounds that are risky. Yes, he wrote very good themes for the past Batman movies, but Zimmer's work delves deeper into the characters using a more imaginative avant-guarde sound palette. HIS WORK is the one that's copied in almost all scores nowadays, even by JNH. HIS SOUNDS are the ones composer's are ripping off.
If you want to talk about variations, then listen to BB again and count all the variations Zimmer did on Batman's main theme, AND secondary theme. There are several.
I'm not attacking you, or dismissing your argument, but I think it's unfounded. And, the truth is that we haven't heard the whole soundtrack yet, but I'm sure there's more thematic material and variations to be heard :)
@Kusi: I agree mostly with what you're saying, but I do hate Filmtracks and it's reviewer :)
I really do not want to be personally, but the lack of any music theoretical knowledge is astonishing. 4 Themes? What themes? Fragments perhaps. This is not experimental, it is uninspired. Jerry Goldsmith wrote experimental music (Planet Of The Apes, Logans Run, ...)
Yes, JNH writes orchestral music, it supports his style. Different sounds? Different instruments? What instruments? A keyboard, a guitar, some sound effects, the remote control music library, sorry, that's not enough.
"HIS WORK is the one that's copied in almost all scores nowadays..." Yes that's true, copied by Geoff Zanelli, Ramin Djawadi, Steve Jablonsky, Harry Gregson Williams, Trevor Rabin, Lorne Balfe, Blake Neely, Nick Glennie Smith. Did I forget someone? Is does not matter. Let's just say" Copied by the Remote Control family. In other statements, careful please. Have you ever listen a score composed by John Barry (I recommend "Hanover Street")or Ennio Morricone? Who copied here?
"I do hate Filmtracks and it's reviewer." Of course. Why?
"...only heard 30 seconds snippets???" How do you know what and how much I've heard?
@ananymous Please leave.
Here we go again. Zimmer didn't study music at school, is it a problem? I'd say many are just jealous of what Zimmer can do with his experimentations without any regards to theoretical music.
If you prefer John Williams who perfectly knows his orchestra but always writes old music that makes his films feel even older, it's fine. But here we are to ENJOY music :)
Trent Easton Navarro
Zimmer, experimentations? Sorry, but I don't hear it. Maybe in the old days, but not anymore. If it's experimentations you want, listen to Goldenthal or Goldsmith. They know how to experiment with music.
@ananymous: what is your idea of a them, exactly? My idea, the generally held idea and the one that appears in the dictionary, is a set of notes that represents a character or an idea (a noun) in a movie. If you accept that then yes, there are 4 main themes heard in the samples, plus secondary themes in between. I can name them if you want me to.
Yes, other composers experiment too, but not to the point that Hans Zimmer does, and I don't mean just with sounds, but with instruments too. Listen to Sherlock Holmes. Have you every really heard a composer go that far with experimenting? Or maybe Black Hawk Down? Hannibal? Gladiator? He also manages to mix these sounds in with the orchestra. You said he uses "keyboard, a guitar, some sound effects, the remote control music library" You're forgetting the orchestra, which is used a lot. Guitars aren't even used that much in his Batman scores. Also, have I mistaken the electric guitar sound that I hear in some of John Barry's scores? Or even John Williams? All composers have used electric guitars too, sometimes even more than Zimmer. And, to be fair, they do it in the most traditional, inside the box way that you can imagine. No composer uses the kind of experimental instrumentation or sound palette that Zimmer does, and he still respects classical music and scores, and blends those styles greatly.
Obviously, the RCP guys copy Zimmer's sound, but so does James Horner, Danny Elfman, Alan Silvestri, Patrick Doyle, James Newton Howard, Howard Shore, a great many others. It's unmistakable.
I hope you know that I don't think that Batman Begins or The Dark Knight or great masterpieces among film scores. But I do admire what Zimmer does with the instrumentation and sound, it's matchless. The themes are certainly above average. If you want to talk about truly insipid music, than this is not it. It's anything but dull.
If you want to know why I dislike Filmtracks, it's simply because Christian Clemmenson isn't a good critic. He often misinterprets scores, he's overly analytical to a ridiculous degree, he's immature, he's incredibly cynical, etc. I don't mean just towards Hans Zimmer but to all composers. I don't like his opinion.
Again, not an attack, but I find your argument totally unfounded.
I see what your saying, but Zimmer isn't ignorant of theoretical music knowledge. Zimmer CAN and HAS written music that is on the John Williams level. I mean, just because you're a Zimmer fan doesn't mean you're listening to mindless music. He IS capable of writing complex music, it's just that his haters tend to dismiss it because he's popular.
Oh look guys, it seems the tasteless JNH bots have come out of the woodwork for one last trolling effort.
I'm not a troll. I'm not blind or deaf and can hear that Zimmer is out of ideas for a long time - not mentioning that sometimes orchestrations are poor and cheap. Howard has weaker moments, yes, but still can bring magic, even if for a few minutes.
A Watchful Guardian
The music hasn't even been released yet buddy. Calm down.
Zimmer's choral Bane "chant" alone is enough to strike down any of JNH's most recent musical ideas -- and honestly, I am a fan of them both, along with Elfman. I don't see why it's gotta be a competition.
Zimmer has nice ideas (Piaff song slowed down, that Bane-chant), but this won't make whole score good.
It's not a competition - Zimmer was my first composer, his music brought me to this world, but for few years I'm huge Howard fan.
over on the watertower music FB page... someone asked them about a full score release... they said they were going to release it digitally :)
They never flat out stated, "we will be releasing the full score"
i guess youre right.. oh well... hope they do tho... id pay $19.99 for it... i mean The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo was only $14.99 for lossless... and that thing was more than complete
A Watchful Guardian
Personally, given the response you're talking about, I think they're going to cash in on this score.
whoops.. meant to post it here as a response.. lol
WB is going to make ALOT of $$ off this film... toys... apparel... tickets... soundtrack sales... & now it looks like score sales... not to mention all the other accessories... and im sure the different promotions
Well still. Look at their wording. SOMETHING's coming. A complete score available for official download might be too good to be true, but they've got something planned.
at the very least, hybrid, answer me why zimmer chose to release game of shadows score with everything off pitch? :/
also, if you need someone with professional experience who could organize complete scores, Im sure theres plenty of people willing to do that... and for FREE
im pretty sure the soundtrack we released is as it was recorded, and the in-movie music was the altered version
@Anonymous: who's to say which is right? I am, for one--as are multiple other people here who have an unreleased track for SH2. It is the only track that fits what is heard in the movie--without any adjustments needing to be made. I have reason to believe that it came from the recording sessions, or possibly some set of demos.
However, all of the OST is off speed from the way it's heard in the film, and I don't yet know if the three bonus tracks have the same error. I could continue making the same statements over and over again, but perhaps you could connect the dots on your own.
@Joe: I am fairly positive Hybrid Soldier has absolutely no control over any of the things you've just requested of him. He's just a fan like all the rest of us with, perhaps, a little bit of extra information and music on the side. ;)
Why do you bring this subject up on The Dark Knight Rises page, anyway? What does your question have anything to do with TDKR?
WB is going to make ALOT of $$ off this film... toys... apparel... tickets... soundtrack sales... & now it looks like score sales... not to mention all the other accessories... and im sure the different promotions