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No matter who did what, Zen Ball Master is a masterpiece ! Cant stop listening to it ! This whole album is a very good team work and its very interesting to feel each composer influence in the cues like some of you already did !
And by the way, about the possible confusion between John Powell and Lorne Balfe contributions to this score, I just noticed how the end of the cue "freedom fighter" (from 1'40) of Balfe's Assassins Creed III OST sounds like Jason Bourne...
Sorry for multiple post , I meant (from 1'50) Ti sum up, sometimes it maybe hard to tell precisely which composer is responsible for a part of a team work....
I know this topic has been beaten to death, but some time has passed and maybe Hybrid can confirm this:
I am 99.9% sure that Hans wrote Shen's theme and that John wrote the lovely theme we hear at the very end (My Son Is Alive) and focused on developing Po's theme. I'm not concerned with who did which cue, we have that information (although it's still a bit vague and confusing). I'm talking about themes. I'm fully convinced that Powell wrote that last theme although the cue sheet credits Hans and Lorne.
Btw, the other 0.1% is a hunch that tells me that Powell might have been involved in Shen's theme as well. But it sounds competely like a Zimmer theme to my ears :)
There are few composers I'm more familiar with than Zimmer and Powell - I've heard the scores from at least 80% of the former's films and probably more like 90% of the latter's - but I'm just basing this on my own opinions, so take it with a grain of salt:
I'm fairly sure that Zimmer had very, very little to do with this score. As you say, he may have written Shen's theme, but the way it is orchestrated, and this goes for the entire score, is pure Powell in style. Like take the cue "Invasion Begins" - the percussion writing in that track is a trademark of Powell's. In fact, the only parts of the score I can point to and definitively say that I hear a voice other than Powell's are the ends of "More Cannons" and "Zen Ball Master", both of which reprise the 7/8 action meter from Megamind. But that, to me, seems more indicative of a Lorne Balfe contribution than a Zimmer one (as I get the impression from Megamind that Zimmer wrote the themes in "Giant Blue Head" and "Roxanne", and Balfe the rest of the cues and underscore). "My Son is Alive", or the end of "My Fist Hungers for Justice", is definitely a Powell contribution because it's basically the flying theme from How to Train Your Dragon.
But mostly the reason I say it's Powell is because it's orchestrally dynamic in a way that few Zimmer scores have ever really been. In general, Powell's orchestral writing tends to be far more complex than Zimmer's (which isn't a criticism of Zimmer or anything, but you can't deny that his orchestral writing is usually pretty straightforward - and there's a ton of woodwinds in this score and other recent Powell scores but hardly any recent Zimmer scores).
I think the reason the cue sheets credit Zimmer is because he was probably involved with writing the themes from the first KFP and, as you say, maybe also Shen's from this one. But I'd say that the actual writing of the cues is down to Powell on this one. Also note that other than Balfe, Dom Lewis and Paul Mounsey are regular additional music contributors to Powell scores - another clue.
Just my two (or more) cents. I love this score to pieces, hence why I've given it so much thought. :)
I agree wholeheartedly on some points. I think it was Powell's decision to make the orchestration of this score more dynamic. Although, I believe Hans incorporated the majority of the ethnic instruments. I also believe the cue sheet is, well, misleading. I trust my gut and instinct more than the cue sheet most of the time because, as we've agreed, the My Son Is Alive cue is definitely Powell. I also believe Powell took more liberty with using Hans' themes whereas I can't point to a specific cue where it sounds like Zimmer handled Powell's themes.
What I can't agree with is the notion that Zimmer took a back seat here. There are so many moments in the score where I can safely say, that's Zimmer. Some of the best moments of the score, and you can't disagree with me here, are thanks to Zimmer's lovely themes. If Zimmer wrote Shen's theme, and I do believe he did, then he wrote a theme suite. Sticking to tradition that theme suite must be around (a mere guess of mine) seven minutes. It could be up to twelve or sixteen minutes, idk. But most likely, if such a theme suite exists most of the statements we hear of Shen's theme are taken from and inspired by that theme suite.
Here's why I'm so confident that Shen's theme is 100% Zimmer. It's greatly influenced by many of Zimmer's themes. Listen to The Pirate Lord of Singapore, Tribal War from Black Hawk Down, and Air Battle from the Pearl Harbor bootleg. I can name a few other influences: Sherlock Holmes, Rango, The Last Samurai, etc. The rest is just my intuition. From the first moment I heard this score I identified Shen's theme and all of its variations as Zimmer's work and contribution.
Apart from the fact that Zimmer's themes dominate a lot of the score, there are many cues that I believe are 100% his. I'd like to name them all, but I would need some time to listen to the score and jot them down. I believe, and this is just a hunch again, that Hans contributed more of the Lalo Schifrin style to this score (mainly heard in Gongmen Jail).
You know, it's pretty interesting how our hunches lead us in different directions. I must confess that I haven't listened to nearly as many of Powell's scores as I have Zimmer's. But I think I've gained enough intuition from listening to Zimmer's scores (I've listened to the vast majority of them) to know, as far as I'm concerned, what he wrote. I think this score is pretty much a split 50/50 as far as who did what.
Not to interrupt, but "Po Finds the Truth" and "Inner Peace" sound completely Zimmer to me.
I totally agree. I think Inner Peace is mostly Zimmer except for the last thirty seconds or so. I think Powell's contribution in Po Finds The Truth is the theme that plays from 0:18 to 0:40, and the rest sounds like Zimmer to me. I also think Zimmer contributed the most in Daddy Issues, Stealth Mode, Gongmen Jail, Po and Shen/Face to Face, and More Cannons
I'd also like to say that to me, the first film sounds mostly like Hans Zimmer, the second film sounds mostly like John Powell. I think that makes sense, too, because maybe the second movie was a sort of "preparation" for Powell's solo effort, How to Train Your Dragon.
Forget that. KFP2 came after.
To figure out the two sounds, Zimmer is more Eastern 'Prokoviev' and Powell is the Eastern 'Ron Goodwin' with the brass trills.
I think it's mostly Powell
Shen's theme's writing is so dynamic where Tai Lung theme is more generic, the latter's style is usually Zimmer's with its brasses( mostly trombone), the former's is always Powell's with its incorporation of many strings and brasses, complemented with woodwinds with its flowing-kind-of notes.
We can see here that Powell takes the lion share, starts with Shen's theme, and then "three masters" theme, again dynamic (the trademark is the usual trumpets background), and then goes again with "rickshaw chase", the beginning is so Powell that we usually hear, and also the timpani and dynamic style, with returning cues from "the bridge" in the first film which i believe was written by Powell, and of course "how to train your dragon" theme in the end (the use of the french horn is obvious), etc.
I think Zimmer name placement is mostly because some of the first movie's theme.
But the real question; Where is powell in 2013, no credits of him whatsoever???
@MGDrone: Thanks for the reply! But there are certain points I disagree with. For one, I don't think Zimmer wrote a theme suite for Shen's theme...if he did, then why isn't it on the album? Zimmer usually hides his theme suites on the album somewhere (not with Dark Knight Rises, but they emerged eventually). But because it's a relatively short theme, I think that even if he did write it (which is very possible), he left the arrangement and development and orchestration of it to Powell and co. So he may have written the notes down at the conceptual stages, but I think it's Powell who took that theme and applied it on a cue-by-cue basis. Hence, I give him more credit for it as it appears on the album and in the film.
Also, let me just run quickly through the cues you claimed were Zimmer's:
"Inner Peace". As you say, the last 30 seconds are most definitely Powell's, sounds a lot like Shrek. The beginning of the cue, with the flute puffs, could be Zimmer (sounds like Last Samurai woodwind work). As for the rest of it, even if it is Zimmer, it's basically just a carbon copy of "Sacred Pool of Tears" from the first score - so it isn't evidence for new Zimmer writing on this score either!
"Po Finds the Truth". Yeah, a good Zimmer-candidate. It's one of the cues I don't listen to as often (in fact, that goes for many of the tracks you listed! Maybe that's just because I enjoy Powell's recent work more than Zimmer's). And again it contains a lot of quotes from "Sacred Pool of Tears". BUT the end, the last minute or so, is 100% Powell - the fast woodwind runs, the style of the percussion, the trumpets at 4:41. But I think you found one of the more co-composed tracks in the score. As is "Po and Shen/Face to Face", but again, I think Powell at least did the percussion for that cue. And the second half is mostly Powell to me - the playful moments, and then the vibrant action cue in the second half.
"Stealth Mode" and "Gongmen Jail". Kind of hard to tell. These are two of the sillier tracks in the score. For the former I'd make the case for Powell because of the dynamic flute and percussion writing (kind of a Horton Hears a Who style). In general I think they're closer to Powell's long back catalog of animated writing, but I wouldn't bet my life on that.
"More Cannons", though, is DEFINITELY Powell. It's got the sort of frantic fast-paced but light orchestral writing I associate with him, and none of the Zimmer heaviness. Just check out the fast string runs and brass fanfares that run all over it. And the percussive undercurrent. And the almost James Bond-like slurring of the brass (which there's much more of in Zen Ball Master) is something Powell's done in the past (Paycheck, Hancock) whereas Zimmer's brass sound is heavier, usually overdubbed with synth samples for extra power (and you can hear that brass sound in the first KFP in eg. "The Bridge", but not in KFP2). But as I said earlier, the last 30 seconds I think are Lorne Balfe's Megamind influence. Zimmer had nothing to do with that track IMO.
@alden, I agree with you. I think Zimmer maybe wrote the basis of Shen's theme and perhaps contributed to maybe 5-10 minutes of the album tops. As for Powell, I heard that he's not taking on as many assignments these days because he wants to spend more time with his son. I don't think he has anything planned for next year, and in 2014 he has HTTYD 2 and The Good Dinosaur (Pixar movie). I'm really excited for those two projects because I think they'll lead to better scores than the more silly movies like Ice Age 4, The Lorax and Happy Feet Two. But it'll be a long time to wait!
Mounsey & Lewis arranged cues that were Powell's charge.
Lorne did the rest. Stealth Mode is pure LB, and the very end of the movie, the cue "My Son Is Alive" credited to Hans & Lorne indeed has a Powell vibe, but above all is sounds a lot like Harry's Arctic Heroes' finale by Lorne...
Shen's theme definitely sounds HZ/LB to me.
Also check Lorne's cues for the short film KFP Secrets Of The Masters on his website, it's also a good indication. ;)
01. Prologue (2:32) 02. Prologue (Alt.) (2:32) 03. Thirty-Eight Bean Buns! (0:59) 04. Thirty-Eight Bean Buns! (Alt.) (1:10) 05. Master Shifu (1:57) 06. Master Shifu (Alt.) (0:34) 07. Attack (3:53) 08. Attack (Alt.) (3:07) 09. Who am I? (3:28) 10. Shen in Gongmen (2:34) 11. Shen in Gongmen (Alt.) (2:16) 12. Destroy Weapon! (2:36) 13. Come On Guys Let's Go (1:19) 14. Come On Guys Let's Go (Alt.) (1:19) 15. Dream (1:25) 16. I'm...Training (0:20) 17. Gongmen City (1:51) 18. Gongmen City (Alt.) (2:00) 19. Future (2:04) 20. Future (Alt.) (1:40) 21. Find this Panda (0:43) 22. Stealth Mode (2:34) 23.Stealth Mode (Alt.) (2:28) 24. Fight (1:27) 25. Fight (Alt.) (1:27) 26. In Gongmen Jail (1:27) 27. In Gongmen Jail (Alt.) (1:27) 28. Pursuits on Carts (2:29) 29. Pursuits on Carts (Alt.) (2:29) 30. We Surrender! (1:20) 31. We Surrender! (Alt.) (1:20) 32. Keep Moving (0:52) 33. Keep Moving (Alt.) (0:52) 34. Weapon (1:32) 35. Why Are We Laughing? (0:30) 36. Fear The Bug (1:36) 37. Fear The Bug (Alt.) (1:39) 38. Run, Run, Little Panda! (2:10) 39. Happy New Year, Sir (0:55) 40. Happy New Year, Sir (Alt.) (0:55) 41. You're Staying Here (0:28) 42. Look, I'm Going (0:52) 43. Escape of Po (3:20) 44. Escape of Po (Alt.) (3:20) 45. You locking for Me (1:47) 46. You locking for Me (Alt. (1:47) 47. The Shot (1:21) 48. The Shot (Alt.) (1:31) 49. The Truth (4:42) 50. The Truth (Alt.) (4:42) 51. What is That? (2:14) 52. What is That? (Alt.) (2:13) 53. Disc of Destruction (0:12) 54. Take Aim! (3:15) 55. Take Aim! (Alt.) (3:15) 56. Let Finish This (1:17) 57. Let Finish This (Alt.) (1:17) 58. Skadoosh (2:12) 59. Skadoosh (Alt.) (2:12) 60. Shen's End (1:10) 61. Father of Po (3:48) 62. Father of Po (Alt.) (3:48) 63. End Credits (8:40) 64. End Credits (Orchestral) (8:40)
Let's get back to something more... related to the score : the complete "score credits" given by ASCAP :
ANCIENT CHINA - STORY OF PEACOCK Hans Zimmer, John Powell, Paul Mounsey DUMPLING WARRIOR - LATE FOR TRAINING Hans Zimmer, John Powell, Paul Mounsey INNER PEACE Hans Zimmer, John Powell WOLF ATTACK Hans Zimmer, John Powell, Dominic Lewis MUSICIANS VILLAGE Hans Zimmer, John Powell, Paul Mounsey FATHER & SON - BABY PO Hans Zimmer, John Powell MASTER SPAR Hans Zimmer, John Powell, Lorne Balfe SAVE KUNG FU – JOURNEY TO GONGMEN CITY Hans Zimmer, John Powell, Lorne Balfe PO DREAMS OF PARENTS Hans Zimmer, John Powell, Paul Mounsey DADDY ISSUE – SHEN’S PALACE Hans Zimmer, John Powell, Lorne Balfe STEALTH MODE - ENTERING THE CITY Hans Zimmer, John Powell, Lorne Balfe GONGMEN JAIL Hans Zimmer, John Powell, Lorne Balfe RICKSHAW CHASE Hans Zimmer, John Powell, Paul Mounsey SURRENDER PALACE Hans Zimmer, John Powell, Paul Mounsey FACE TO FACE Hans Zimmer, John Powell, Lorne Balfe MORE CANNONS Hans Zimmer, John Powell, Lorne Balfe THE HARDCORE DO UNDERSTAND Hans Zimmer, John Powell, Lorne Balfe SHEN FREES SOOTHSAYER - FIREWORKS FACTORY Hans Zimmer, John Powell, Dominic Lewis PO FINDS THE TRUTH Hans Zimmer, John Powell INVASION BEGINS - PO RETURNS Hans Zimmer, John Powell, Dominic Lewis PO THROWS HAT Hans Zimmer, John Powell FREE THE FIVE Hans Zimmer, John Powell, Dominic Lewis THE FUTURE IS HERE - ZEN BALL MASTER Hans Zimmer, John Powell, Lorne Balfe PO DEFEATS SHEN - REUNION Hans Zimmer, John Powell, Lorne Balfe MY SON IS ALIVE Hans Zimmer, Lorne Balfe DUMPLING WARRIOR REMIX Hans Zimmer, John Powell, Junkie XL SKADOOSH SUITE Hans Zimmer, John Powell
Great you dug this up! Although I am not sure you should credit that Dutch dude :P
Now it's just getting confusing. Notice "Wolf Attack" and "Musicians Village" are 2 separate entities. Which means....what? And where did you get this? I am so confused!
Does this mean there SHOULD be or IS GOING TO BE a "Complete" score? Can someone shed some light on this?
I can shed some light on this. It's only a track list. The composers registered the track titles on ASCAP. That doesn't mean that something is going to "leak".
@Adrian: it's not like Hybrid has any control over the credits for who did what. He just posted this list as he saw it from ASCAP.
Can't hurt to hope!
Have you guys taken into consideration that it wasn't the real Hybrid Soldier who posted this? I have never known him to post ASCAP track lists, but other people have. What Hybrid does is actually edit the official track list at the top of the page. Plus, he usually leaves some kind of smiley at the end of his sentence. I'm not talking about ";)", it's usually something different. Unless Hybrid actually comes here and says it was him, I don't believe he posted this list.
Who is the "real" Hybrid Soldier?
Interesting concept Mr. Charles ! Who is who ! Sounds like a David Lynch movie... haha
Anyway the best way to prove I am who I am is : how the hell did I detail who did what on the CD page above if I'm not me ?
Oh and I posted it here cause I thought it might interest people (I mean, it's H-Z.com right ?). I usually did this on the forum, but who would see it ? :O
Lorne is behind My Son Is Alive, best cue of the score (last part of My Fist Hungers For Justice) : no surprise here ! ;)
If you don't believe him, check ASCAP yourself :P
could someone help me out here i have a 820 page full orchestral score for this and its so hard to pick out songs from all the damn cues could someone post a list of all cues starting with 1m1 and so on. i would really appreciate it
Adam, I don't think anyone knows the slate numbers and the cues....
( srry posted wrong comment above) oh, alright guess i will have to figure it out. yay for me :) doesnt help the songs are actually suites cut up of cues from all parts of the full score grrr
Could you please list these so-called "most known John Powell scores that suck"? Because the only scores by Powell that I'd apply that harsh word to are Bourne Identity (and that's only because the sequels did the same thing so much better) and Jumper. The Bourne sequels, X-Men, Hancock, Paycheck and every single damned animated score he's ever done are all awesome. Just because he can actually use an orchestra properly (unlike his former mentor lately)...
Putting the composer of How to Train Your Dragon below Örvarsson and Balfe is beyond ludicrous. Then again, you seem to actually think Badelt was responsible for most of PotC (news check: it was Zimmer's themes and Badelt was only one of a dozen or so arrangers; his name's on the front for contractual reasons), so perhaps I shouldn't be taking you so seriously.
Didn't you read the whole thing? He said: "this is my opinion so it's not personal". People are entitled to their own personal opinions and they shouldn't have to explain themselves all the time.
Also, @Snake: who the heck are you responding to? You know you can hit "reply to topic" or whatever it says and respond to the conversation already in progress started by zeroman. Otherwise, you're out in the middle of nowhere and it looks like you're responding to a brick wall. And one last thing: did you really make three responses to zeroman's question? Why?
oh, alright guess i will have to figure it out. yay for me :) doesnt help the songs are actually suites cut up of cues from all parts of the full score grrr
1. Harry Gregson-Williams 2. Steve Jablonsky 3. Klaus Badelt 4. Trevor Rabin 5. Lorne Balfe 6. Mark Mancina 7. Atli Örvarsson 8. John Powell
1. Harry Gregson-Williams: Hans Zimmer's most talented, trusted and beloved protegé during his time at the formely known "Media Ventures". Worked and works with such acclaimed director as Ridley Scott, Tony Scott, Andrew Adamson, Jon Favreau, Peter Berg, Nick Lord, Alejandro Gonzalez Iñarritu, Mike Newell and Ben Affleck. Many of his scores are enjoyable and has many powerful and soft elements that fits perfectly with any kind movie themes or topics, not mentioning the exclusive signature he have developed during all his years as a composer and applied thanks to Hans Zimmer.
2. Steve Jablonsky: Probably Zimmer's most trusted apprentice to date in RCP. He's starting to gain respect in Hollywood thanks to teachings he took from Harry Gregson-Williams, Hans Zimmer and Nick Glennie-Smith, the only thing is that some of his notable works come from petty and horrible movies. I mean, the Transformers films (his most notable works to date) suck, but the music makes those movies decent. He has the talent and the passion; he just need to work on more serious projects.
3. Klaus Badelt: Probably one of the most recognized composers around the world, I've heard some of his soundtracks and they're good, but I loved his work on Pirates of the Caribbean. Who knows why he's not involved with RCP, but he's doing a good job not only in Hollywood, but in foreign films too.
4. Trevor Rabin: An awesome guitar player. I don't like his scores of today, but he has great scores from past movies, especially from the 90 and earlier 2000s films.
5. Lorne Balfe: I put in this place because I like his Modern Warfare 2 soundtrack. Just that.
6. Mark Mancina: A great composer of the 90s. Who knows why he's not working now on recent stuff.
7. Atli Örvarsson: Being working as an additional composer on Zimmer's scores gave him confidence to score films by himself, but he needs to be involved in more serious films, like Steve Jablonsky.
8. John Powell: He gained respect being one of Zimmer's protegé. He has scores that are great, but his most known scores aren't great and to me, his most known scores suck (this is my opinion so it's not personal), but I'm not saying he totally sucks. I'm just saying I don't find his works as enjoyable. I like some scores like X-Men The Last Stand and Green Zone. Those are great to me. That's all.
Many people would agree with me. Many people won't. We have different tastes and opinions, and that's what I like about giving reviews about film scores.
1. Harry Gregson-Williams: Gained respected around the world for his works becoming one of the most successful, recognized and respected film composers of all times, not only composing music for movies, but for videogames too.
2. Steve Jablonsky: He's currently gaining a place in Hollywood and following Harry Gregson-Williams's and Hans Zimmer's footsteps.
3. Klaus Badelt: The same I said before about him.
4. Trevor Rabin: The same.
5. Lorne Balfe: A composer who's rising in film and videogame music.
6. Mark Mancina: One of the most wanted composers at the past two decades.
7. Atli Örvarsson: A composer who needs to improve on his works.
8. John Powell: A man who gained a place in film industry thanks to Harry Gregson-Williams, Hans Zimmer and Klaus Badelt worked with him. And he keeps himself busy working on high budget projects which is good for a film composer.
Definitely Harry Gregson-Williams. Today, he relies on Steve Jablonsky, but before him, he relied on Harry Gregson-Williams. Besides, he is still good friends with Hans. Not mentioning John Powell, but sometimes he depends on Zimmer's team, while Gregson-Williams has his own team now, thanks to Zimmer's teachings.
Out of all of the Hans Zimmer's protege's who would you all think or vote for to be best the protege of Hans Zimmer?
That is my vote. It's a matter of opinion, not fact
the former protege: Klaus Badelt!
1. John Powell 2. Harry Gregson-Williams 3. Klaus Badelt 4. Steve Jablonsky 5. Mark Mancina 6. Trevor Rabin 7. Henry Jackman 8. Nick Glennie-Smith 9. Rupert Gregson-Williams 10. Atli Örvarsson
Definitely no Balfe or Djawadi for me. Neither of them have written any interesting scores, yet, IMO. The only good Djawadi track is the main title from Game of Thrones. ;)
Honestly, Powell has no competition, though.
How About Iron Man or Clash of the Titans? I liked them. Anonymous, I can agree with you on Klaus Badelt
1. Harry Gregson-Williams 2. Steve Jablonsky 3. John Powell 4. Henry Jackman 5. Mark Mancina
In my opinion, it's hard not to like Gregson-Williams the best. His scores for Narnia, Kingdom of Heaven, Prince of Persia, and Arthur Christmas were amazing. I have always loved the Transformers scores, so Jablonsky is a close second. I've never enjoyed the Bourne scores, however Powell's How to Train Your Dragon score was by far the best of 2010.
1. John Powell 2. Harry Gregson-Williams 3. Klaus Badelt 4. Henry Jackman 5. Mark Mancina 6. Steve Jablonsky 7. Jim Dooley 8. Atli Orvarsson 9. Trevor Morris 10. Ramin Djawadi
I think that Djawadi is starting to grow into a competent composer. I actually liked most of "Clash" and he's done good work on "Game of Thrones." He has the potential to show more skill if he's given more than contemporary actioners to score.
Lorne Balfe. :)
Hans would probably not disagree. ;)
Trent Easton Navarro
1, John Powell 2, Harry Gregson-Williams 3, Mark Mancina 4, Trevor Rabin 5, Klaus Badelt 6, Jeff Rona 7, Steve Jablonsky 8, Henry Jackman 9, Atli Orvarsson 10, Nick Glennie-Smith
I definitely like the older protege's better than the current minions. Not sure if Rabin really counts though, considering he's not really a protege.
Powell of course :)
HHTYD is the best score of the decade!
While I'm enjoying seeing everyone's favorite proteges and this is a nice little discussion with no hatred or harm, I can't help but feel like this should be somewhere else. It's no big deal though. Hybrid, I like Lorne Balfe, too.
1.) Steve Jablonsky 2.) Klaus Badelt 3.) Ramin Djawadi 4.) Lorne Balfe 5.) Trevor Rabin (wish he was still part of RCP) 6.) John Powell 7.) Harry Gregson-Williams
Wow. Balfe and Djawadi above Powell and Gregson-Williams? Baffling. The best of the former two is about equal to a slightly below-average score from Powell.
I see you haven't been on for a while, Edmund. If you hate this place so much, why do you come crashing through here making everyone mad with comments that so clearly say, "I hate RCP and everyone who works there and all of your opinions are worthless"?
I don't understand why people like you feel the need to post on here--nay, simply exist. These people are just having a constructive conversation on their favorite RCP composers, which is all their opinion and you come in and say, "No, your opinion is wrong and you're a dumbass for thinking it."
Nobody else worded their sentences like you. You wanna see how it feels? Oh, Edmund, you put Powell at the top of your list? Look at all the crap he writes. And you even included Nick Glennie-Smith? What were you thinking?!
Oh, and by the way, Edmund was the name of the kid in Chronicles of Narnia who kept disobeying his siblings and ended up going behind their backs and betraying them. You're the bad kid.
On the contrary, I don't hate RCP at all. John Powell is my favorite composer. Hans Zimmer used to be (though I really haven't liked his work in the past few years, particularly the way his albums are arranged lately). I really enjoy Steve Jablonsky, (most of) Harry Gregson-Williams' and Mark Mancina's works. Nick Glennie-Smith has written some really enjoyable stuff (Man in the Iron Mask, The Rock). I just think that Ramin Djawadi and Lorne Balfe are nowhere near that level, that's all.
I was a bit strapped for time when I made that final comment, and yes, I probably should have just asked which works by Balfe and Djawadi they find superior to Powell and Gregson-Williams. Are Clash of the Titans and Ironclad really better than How to Train Your Dragon or Sinbad? Sure, it's all about personal opinions, which is why I'd like to hear their reasoning behind those opinions.
Why the hell would I be here if I dislike RCP? I like them a lot. Just not every single thing they do.
A soundtrack to me is one which included all of the music, no matter how short the songs are, from the movie.
And what it looks like to me is that these Kung Fu Panda soundtrack released only include Zimmer's compositions. And not Powell's or Balfe's, etc. it also seems like they've just left out the fight scene music. There must be a reasoning behind this, so what is it?
My Zimmer soundtracks are the only incomplete ones, so maybe it has something to do with him?
And no, I don't have any Pirates soundtracks.
We didn't ask what your definition of a soundtrack was (which, btw, is somewhat inaccurate)--we asked what your definition of "complete" was.
Okay...so we know what some of your incomplete soundtracks are from RCP (big surprise). What are some of your 122 scores that are actually complete?
And you don't have to keep making new topics for your posts. You can just as easily post below your Final Edit same as the rest of us are doing, and it keeps the conversation flowing better and more organized.
The fact is that there should not be a "complete" soundtrack, but only a soundtrack that is complete.
In a soundtrack, I like to be able to listen to the whole thing, start to finish, and while I'm doing it, watch the movie in my head, because I know what goes on during that music that is playing, which means the soundtrack has to have every piece of music from the movie. But now, I cannot, because of what has happened here (I think I've already said this).
An example of a soundtrack which I can do this with, is the Princess Mononoke soundtrack, composed by Mamoru Fujisawa (Joe Hisaishi).
It is complete in the sense that I can listen to it, start to finish, without any problems of missing music.
Honestly, I don't think I've ever come across an official soundtrack release containing literally every second of music used in its film counterpart. This simply does not happen today (with exceptions, obviously, but I'm generalizing), especially with mainstream films. In fact, most soundtracks that I've heard usually contain slightly to extremely altered "album versions" of cues used in the film, to make for a better and more comprehensive listening experience.
That's what my definition of "official soundtrack" has always been - an execution and presentation of musical ideas from its film counterpart. Whether or not this entails the simple transference film masters or a separately-executed effort of suites or album versions usually depends, but it does not by any means mean that every second of film music will be included.
These things are made to market score material to the public. We have to face the fact that people who buy a soundtrack and actually listen to it comprehensively, let alone in-depth enough to tell exactly what music is missing, is an extremely limited market. Most people I know that own the POTC scores have no idea of (let alone interest in) the politics behind them. Official soundtracks from studio labels aren't tailored for avid fans like us, they're put together for the general mainstream who would come home from a film and plop themselves on iTunes to put its name in the search bar.
Unfortunately - and I'm sure I'm not the first to say this here - this is just not an ideal world for an avid film score fan to live in.
When I think of a soundtrack, I envision it as having all of the actual songs from the film, not including small 5 second cues, etc.
This soundtrack would be perfect, but unfortunately, it's missing 2 unforgettable pieces. Even if it doesn't have exactly ever song frm the movie, these 2 missing pieces are what would have made it, in my opinion, a "Complete Soundtrack" (They are the Musician's Village Fight Scene and Shen/Master's Council fight Scene)
I don't know why they had to skip out on 2 important pieces of music.
I guess we'll never know.
The Kung Fu Panda 1 soundtrack is what bothers me though, because it's missing a lot of memorable songs, such as he part where Tigress jumps off the roof, (Amazing Percussion), as well as the first Furious Five fight scene with shifu and his Flute.
It's just these larger, longer, more notable songs and connecting songs that make the soundtrack incomplete. (Again, they skimped on some important songs, and why? who knows.)
I would have directed this message elsewhere but unfortunately there is nowhere else to direct it to, so now you get it, whoever may be reading this.
Dear Hans Zimmer/John Powell/RCP/ DreamWorks Animation SKG Inc.... It has come to my attention that certain movie soundtracks have been released that do not contain the full soundtrack of the movie. What I mean is, soundtracks of DreamWorks Animation movies have been released that do not contain all of the songs from the movie itself, but only 60 minutes or so of random songs from it.
I would like to direct your attention to one DWA movie series in particular...
Kung Fu Panda.
Yes, you heard me right. This movie's soundtrack (scored by Hans Zimmer and John Powell) was released with more than half of the music from the movie missing. Now normally the next step would be an "extended" release of the soundtrack, I suppose, in order to gain more profit, but in this case, it's been almost 4 years, and no "extended" soundtrack has been released for Kung Fu Panda, leaving all the fans of the franchise in the shadowy wake of poor marketing schemes. (and when I say extended, I mean a soundtrack that has been extended from it's predecessor to include more, if not all, of the songs from the movie, whereas the previous version had, say, the main songs from the movie, but not all).
This matter also applies to the Kung Fu Panda 2 soundtrack, as well as the How To Train Your Dragon Soundtrack (However, I've heard there WILL be an extended soundtrack for HTTYD, but who knows).
What I propose is that complete soundtracks for both Kung Fu Panda 1 and 2 be released, or at least the missing tracks be released as High-Quality downloads, free of charge.
One more thing I've noticed is that the (Official) Kung Fu Panda WEBSITE includes ALL of the missing tracks, available to listen to (in low quality), but not download.
So why is it that such problems seem to arise from something that should just be so simple? If Hans Zimmer/John Powell/RCP/DreamWorks respect their fans, then full Kung Fu Panda, 1 and 2, soundtracks should be released.
Mitchell Norris firstname.lastname@example.org
You're adressing this to the wrong crowd. I learned recently the whole reason why certain soundtracks get from 30 to 45 min and others up to 70+.
It's an issue with the musicians that play the music, or more specifically, their representatives. They have different fees that they charge in order for their work to be published and heard elsewhere. For their playing heard in the film, the fee is already quite intimidating, add to that the CD recording, which is another fee for re-use, and it depends on how many mins. of music are featured.
Also, the fees are different, with European musician fees usually cheaper, thus, more likely to add as much music as possible.
That's why some CD's have 30 min. summaries and others are full with almost 80 min. of most of the music from the film.
Master of Fate
Yeah, good luck with that. This is a fan site, not a place run by Remote Control Productions. Nobody of importance is ever going to read this and your "proposal" will go unheard forever.
By the way, you're also not supposed to leave your email address out in the open. (The mods will probably be by later to either censor your email or delete all the posts you've made thus far.)
And I'll say this just once more for emphasis: this is a fan site. If you actually cause a revolution in the way that the entirety of the music industry works--or at least that branch dominated by RCP--then bravo to you sir!...Alas, that is about as likely as Friday the 13th and Halloween falling on the same day.
I still think that if they're going to release a soundtrack, it should be complete. I've never come across a soundtrack that was not complete before Kung Fu Panda, HTTYD, and so on. It's only these DreamWorks films that were scored by Hans Zimmer/John Powell that seem to have problems.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens.
Sad Fan: "I've never come across a soundtrack that was not complete before Kung Fu Panda, HTTYD, and so on."
Are you kidding me? 95% of soundtrack releases are incomplete.
None of the Soundtracks I have are incomplete. I have 122. Movie and Video Game. They all include all the music from their respective titles. (except for KFP, of course.)
KFP 1/2 are the only soundtracks I have that are incomplete.
I find that extremely hard to believe, Sad Fan. 122 scores and all of them just so happen to include EVERY SECOND of their scores? Don't you have a Pirates of the Caribbean CD at all? Because God knows those are far from complete. You must have been incredibly lucky so far in your purchases. Or else you only buy lots of video game scores (and the LotR Complete Recordings). Or scores from really short movies or something. I'd love for you to name some of those scores you have that are allegedly complete.
And your choice of scores to get upset about is really strange...For example, I actually have the How to Train Your Dragon complete score (the Academy promo). You want to know how much more music is on there? Nine. Nine stinking extra minutes than the commercial album. A lot of them are really short cues that I can see why they left off the album, because it would have thrown off the flow of the score. Am I glad to have it? Sure. Would I have torn my hair out if I hadn't got it? Hardly, because all the good stuff was already on the commercial album. And I expect that's the way with the Kung Fu Panda scores.
I remember being just as upset as you way back in 2007 when Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End came out, I bought the CD (my first ever score) and realized the music from the parachute escape wasn't on there, neither was the complete end credits suite or any number of other moments that had stood out to me in the film. But I soon realized that that's just not how score releases work, unfortunately. It's a shame, but there's nothing to be done about it (definitely not by complaining at a fan site :p ). Movies are usually 90+ minutes long and only 80 minutes fit on a CD...you do the math. Man, I wonder what you'd have been like in the 90s when every score that ever came out was half an hour long.
Still, I feel for ya, man. It sucks to hear good music in a movie and realize it's not released. But it's just one of those things that score fans have to get used to.
Yes, I too, would like to know what at least a couple of the scores are in your collection, Sad Fan. Like Edmund, I can't believe that you have 122 scores and nearly 100% of them are absolutely complete. I don't have much more than you, maybe around 160 or so scores in my collection, and I can consider only between 10% and 15% of them to be absolutely complete. I have a considerably longer list of *expanded* scores though.
Perhaps, you are just confused as to what the definition of "complete" is. As Edmund pointed out, complete would mean that the score(s) you own contains every second of music heard throughout the whole film.
@Edmund, aren't you glad we finally got that 2CD bootleg leak of At World's End that included the music from the parachute scene?
In an ideal world, of course complete scores would be released on a day to day basis. It just doesn't happen. It's not marketable...and honestly, longer isn't necessarily always better. Just look at that unholy 3CD release for The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo (the fact that every single track sounds exactly the same is a different discussion...)!
Plus, the movie is only about 90 minutes long. This is a 60 minute album. That means that at most, we're only missing 30 minutes of score (not counting moments in the movie when there isn't a score playing). I've been listening through some of the tracks at the KFP2 official website and honestly, the ones that weren't on the album aren't so spectacular that I feel like they HAD to be included.
Well good for you. That doesn't mean that Sad Fan also feels the same way, though. Some people just like to be completionists.
How about when they leave forgettable music on an original soundtrack when there could have been far better music to be placed in those 60 minutes? (hint, hint, I'm referring to SH2)
Notable pieces that were left out of the soundtrack were the Musician's Village fight scene, as well as when Shen confronts the Master's Council, and kills thundering Rhino.
There are many other pieces missing that you probably wouldn't remember.
the least they could do is release an EXTENDED soundtracks that includes all the tracks.
Because really there were only a few points where the movie DIDN'T have music playing.
And just look at the Kung Fu Panda 1 soundtrack, more than half the music is MISSING. It's been almost 4 years and yet there has not been a single extended release or download of a FULL soundtrack.
Just look at Skyrim: 4 CDS! Who cares how many CDS or how long it is.
I personally like to be able to listen to a soundtrack, and in my mind watch the movie because I know what is happening during that song. But now, I cannot, so thanks for nothing RCP
@Mycroft well, yes, I like to be a completist too when it comes to scores. If a complete Kung Fu Panda 2 were to emerge I'd be the first to jump right on it. But it's just unrealistic to expect complete scores to be readily available. As far as score releases go, Kung Fu Panda 2 is actually a pretty good one...especially compares with SH2 or Rango (I'd also add On Stranger Tides but that whole score was crap so the album release doesn't matter in retrospect). It's just something soundtrack fans have to learn to accept...until the recording sessions leak, of course. ;)
I actually like Sad Fan's idea of allowing the complete score to be available for download once you've purchased the CD. Just add a code in the booklet that you can type in on the movie's website or something. It's a neat idea, and I doubt it would lose the record companies a cent...until people start coming up with hack codes, etc. etc. but that's as inevitable as filesharing.
Every track that credits "Hans Zimmer" is a lie. This is a 95% John Powell score to my ears.
you should have your ears checked
Yes, this is absolutely a Powell score. They should write Powell name first in that soundtrack cover, because what i heard is scoring style of Mr. Powell( well some of the track has Mr. Balfe style though) . I didn't hear ( alot of ) Zimmer handprint in it. Track 1: Obvious Powell villain theme,and complicated Powell-ly violin notes as the backsound Track 2and 3 : Powell' slow arrengement Track 4 : Mostly Mr. Balfe style Track 5 : Theme from John Powell, style from John Powell Track 6 and 7: Half Mr. Zimmer though Track 8 and 9: Completely John Powell ( Rickshaw Chase is the most obvious, with that timpani, wavy violin notes, and typical Powelly French horn) Track 10 : Half Zimmer, half Balfe Track 11 : Completely Powell Track 12 : Mostly Powell, and the rest is Balfe' Track 13 and 14 : Mostly Powell Track 15 : Mostly Powell( the battle theme), but i heard balfe's megamind style though Track 16 : Completely Powell with his "How to train your dragon" konf of theme.
This is Powell style and orchestrations but with a certain (and truly pleasant) Zimmer touch. I find this score 200x better than the first!
Does it really matter? I am sure Hans and John have sorted it out between themselves as far as paycheck is concerned. On CD, it is the music that matters and it is awesome, regardless of who wrote it!
Possibly the only reason that Hans Zimmer's name is listed first on all the tracks is because the name of this website is Hans-Zimmer.com. Perhaps if there was a fan site like this dedicated to John Powell, his name would be listed first. But John Powell works for (with?) Hans Zimmer, so....yeah.
Guys, perhaps this is a dispute that Hybrid Soldier can settle? Hybrid, you must know - can you help us out?
Pretty sure we've been over this before but...
If it is a "Hans Zimmer & John Powell" score, that means they had a hand in every single piece of music in the film. However they often delegate certain scenes to certain composers. For instance, track 15 "Zen Ball Master;" the theme(s) are by Zimmer and Powell but the track was written by Lorne Balfe. Hybrid knows this because some of these are provided on the composers' websites and credits are often listed on ASCAP.
There's a cue in "More Cannons!" that reminds me of "Septimus" from the movie "Stardust" composed by Eshkeri.
Just wanted to know that!
Anyway, this score is amazing. Better than the first one to be honest. There are moments you can clearly identify Hans Zimmer work and other where is pure John Powell - "Save Kung Fu" is filled with Powell's vibe.
I never had so much fun while listening to a score as much as I had with this one.
Come on guys... I need to know it 'cause it's racking my brains.
The fact that it sounds like "Septimus" from "Stardust" doesn't necessarily mean Eshkeri was part of the team... For me, it sounds more like they had "Septimus" used as temp track for the sequence !
How come you guys, when it's to trash a score, are always ready to reply and when someone asks something you don't???!!!
Did Ilan Eshkeri wrote any additional music for this score, I ask again.
I would appreciate if you guys answered me!
would give you a reply, but don't know the answer sry...;)
Trent Easton Navarro
Eshkeri isn't credited anywhere so I highly doubt it
If Eshkeri isn't credited, he probably didn't write any music. With MV/RC, usually all the additional music composers are credited at least in the booklet (though they still aren't detailed enough about who exactly wrote what, unfortunately...).
Chill. Unless somebody is holding you at gunpoint to find out whether Ilan Eshkeri co-wrote "More Cannons", in which case I understand your impatience ;)
After the most horrendous physical score release of the decade call Pirates 4 I must say that this Zimmer-Powell effert is extremely good. Didn't except it to be that great.
Even better that John was there to ensure that Hans that score fans probably want more than 6 real score tracks and only one remix.
Result: Superb album!
you know, POTC 4 is one of the best scores i have ever heard, don't judge it if ur not a musician, if ur just a random guy with no musical background. Hans never messed up in his entire career, i think he deserves a little credit for his previous accomplishments. Thank you
Very well said, Victor.
I play for years and I think POTC4 wasn't a great score. AWE & DMC were great, but the 4th score is a random mix of previous themes.
For example: The reprise of "i don't think now's the best time" is so sad... in AWE it was a beautiful and intense piece of music, here it became a 2O seconds action track, put at the end of an other track, without any connection.
For sure, Mermaids & Blackbeard themes are great. But nothing to compare to previous Pirates scores.
* i played music for years, sorry
you know, its never easy to come up with such new great ideas to a fourth movie, i think Hans has to keep the old themes, he shouldnt give these old themes up, so yeah...i think nowadays its the hardest thing to come up with new ideas, cuz everything pretty much is done.
Trent Easton Navarro
"don't judge it if ur not a musician, if ur just a random guy with no musical background"
Now, that doesn't snobbish at all...
Please, with all your musical knowledge, educate us simple people why POTC4 is one of the best score ever?
woo, we have a tough guy right here, simply because it is the best score ok?
Trent Easton Navarro
Well, you're the musician so you must be right then! How could have been so foolish to think it was crap... Silly me
you seem to be a Hans hater guy
No I'm not. I love Hans Zimmer. In fact I have tons of scores of him. But Pirates 4 is utter crap.
If there was more score instead of remixes and collaborated tracks that are not in the movie, then it would be a bit better but Pirates 4 lacks seriously in the creativity department.
No love, passion or care has gone in Pirates 4 while in this score (this is the KungFu Panda 2 page after all) is has all the ingredients to be an awesome score.
POTC 4 isn't really by Hans Zimmer. It's a pure Remote Control production. Moreover, It's difficult to create new stuff because the movie isn't very inspired..(I think about the final which is very bad)
The first Pirates is the better of the 4. However, remember that score is already a copy-paste of the Old Media-Ventures style! They can't change all the style of the music or create themes which are too distants with the music of the three-one movies!
I think Pirates need a new-bad guy like Davy Jones has been. Then, Zimmer&co could create new good themes.
But the score-CD is very crappy, that's a fact!! Rodrigo&Gabriela are out of game for a "Pirates" movie!
For me Pirates 3 was the best, thanks to the wonderful music that takes the movie to the sky :) scenes like "parlay" or "up is down" or Lord Cutler Beckett's death are so crazy!
For me Pirates 3 was the best, thanks to the wonderful music that takes the movie to the sky :) scenes like "parlay" or "up is down" or Lord Cutler Beckett's death are so crazy!
Victor, man, if POTC 4 is one of the best score you've ever heard, you should really keep your patronizing comments for yourself, because you have no credibiliy whatsoever. Sorry man, I didn't really mean to be rude, but those kind of comments just annoy the crap out of me. There's a ton of better material in Hans's discocraphy alone...
Guys, can we end this discussion, please? If you want to talk about Pirates 4, go to that page. This is for Kung Fu Panda 2.
hahahha, none taken! after all this is a discussion board, not a fight club!!! the fact is my ears enjoy potc 4 specially the new mermaid theme, it gives me goosebumps, but ur free to like it or dislike it, i'm sorry for the bad beginning to our discussion, i may have come up a little rude, but live hans zimmer!!
As we all do... As a matter of fact I really like that Mermaid cue myself, and I have to agree that the OP may have been a bit too harsh, but that's a fan's reaction I guess... Rest assured that I, and the rest of the fans, I'm sure, are always hoping for a good Zimmer score, and that it doesn't do us any pleasure to have to criticize some of them! Anyway I'm glad you like it, and I wish I could enjoy it like you do, but back to Kung Fu Panda 2 now :) (that one I like... a lot!!)